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In the wake of this and other scandals, the Mars Hill Church collapsed. But if I had trusted my gut at the time I would have admitted that staff viewing the members as guests is so far outside Body of Christ thinking it should not require an explanation. He was a mass murdering thug. I find it hard to believe he truly didnt know anything before last weekend! The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. he was in glory then entered into human. Are you not voting for the candidates and issues Gateway told you to? What Mark Driscoll Told Brian Houston at Hillsong Conference (updated) It is all choreographed and it works! And thus, I think that the only way to self regulate is to have benchmarks that people must reach to be in leadership positions. I am the way and the truth, no one comes to the Father, but through Me -Jesus, all those who call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved!. Seems like the truth being covered, twisted, remade, ignored is what keeps these people in power and LTs post brings the truth as it actually is back to the forefront. Jesus Church or 501(c)3 Religious business? I am not the judge of the hearts of men, but God has given us clues to the genuine presence of the Spirit, and I did not see it. As I said, I am not a fan, but I can see the appeal of *his image,* from way back in the late 60s when posters of him 1st started appearing in college dorms. And he was not originally trusted or met with open arms by the Jesus believers of the day. This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. James River Church is one of the largest Assemblies of God churches in the United States. "Eastview Christian Church pastor, Mike Baker, resigns after son, Caleb Baker, is fired from Central Christian Church for adultery" Why? Rumors that circulated after the trial of Paul Petry. After witnessing Philips miracles, he tried to buy the power with his money. Let's see. If not, why not? Pastor Lindell invited disgraced misogynistic megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll to speak at James River Assembly while Driscoll was in the midst of a sexual harassment and bullying scandal in his home church. an important thing you wrote about gateway i think. I noted in my comments on the petition that Driscoll still hasnt repented before all and specifically to the people whose lives he damaged, such as former Mars Hill elder/attorney Paul Petry, a godly, decent man. Lindell hit two main points: the Bible is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality as sin and the ordinance is an infringement on the religious rights of Christians who believe so. According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. it isnt anguish if i dont care and i am just a head of some church deciding that someone cant seperate or divorce or annul because i dont have time to look into it right now and i will get back to them with my judgment when i think its appropriate. You have a holy responsibility to lead your flock in truth and light yet you are deliberately misleading them. "Homosexual activity will lead to destruction. http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/june/distraction-down-under-hillsong-mark-driscoll-conference.html. So work harder for the state and your comrades who do not meet their quotas. Then you can better understand the depths of this deception. (See screen shot from the church website. I would say he was a tyrannical charlatan that used people for his own purposes and claiming it was of Christ. They dont (want to) get it. i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. This has taken a toll on me and my family, as well as those close to me, the former senior pastor wrote in a letter posted on the ROCs website. You make an interesting comparison. The question is not, Can he be forgiven? but rather Should he be trusted in a position of power over peoples lives? I would guess that many of the people who have been directly harmed by him have forgiven him. "In other words, you can believe what you want within the confines of the four walls of the church as long as you don't live it outside of the church.". In October, he resigned as head pastor from Mars Hill, a Seattle megachurch with a Sunday attendance of 13,000. That idea was right before the idea that they were always having to give a lot of money to the church while we have voluntary giving. We know that Driscoll should never have been a pastor: lack of formal qualifications, lack of maturity in the faith (too young, and never been a member of a church before he started his own), lack of maturity in general; Whats worse, total lack of good character. vinegar is disinfectant for wiping yourself. The worship leaders laugh about it. This is not a measure of faith. (remembering marks sermon about mark being king) jesus is seated and he stands up for stephen. Same deal with Driscoll, just a different sound track. Did Paul plagiarize? Working at James River is never be boring because of the mission that you are pursuing and the amazing things that you get to be a part of. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. There is a distinct period of time that must pass before you can really objectively address the damage that that place does. i hope the same is happening to others who have been victims of spiritual abuse and church cult tactics. This is what the giving unit is looking for, not God. Why should we be surprised? In December 2007, Merle and I quietly left Mars Hill Church. Bah, hit reply to soon. forgiveness means its paid in full. Acts 6:15, they were enraged. Lindell needs to state, specifically, what has been written about Driscoll that is a lie, because he is in effect calling all the victims and the 40 pastors/elders who filed formal charges against MD liars. This guy has lists on his page in bulleted form: Most people have more sunk into that cult than they do their homes. As some are aware, the result of me pleading for a fair trial and arguing for due deliberation when changing bylaws was that Mark Driscoll, in an abusive and vile manner, threatened to destroy me and my ministry. Driscoll does not meet the biblical qualifications to be a preacher. Gramp3 and I were recalling today the first time we ever heard Driscolls name brought up in a church. The US pastor, who has courtedcontroversy for what has been dubbed his "more-macho-than-thou" brand of Christianity, resigned from his Seattle megachurch in October after being found "guilty of pride" as well as abusive, controlling and manipulative behaviour. I hope I am wrong. That does not mean you want harm to come to them. rocks are flying people are shouting opposition and accusations., in christian language christians are like sheep, opponents are like wolves, alpha, saul. He saw it as bad government.". We live in a youtube world where fun and funny trump all. Pokin Around: 'Cussing pastor' to preach at James River Church So I can see why some churches would want him on board. Personally I am not really all that interested in what the celebrites do as in endorsing, spinning events or behavior, etc. Pastors who give Mark Driscoll a platform are adding to the abuse of those of us who were abusively treated by Mars Hill Church. After describing the crucifixion of Jesus, Mark Driscoll asks: Who has attacked you? Mark was one cog in a system that should never have been in place. I agree more with you than I would like to. ( As with the dituation with John Mark mentioned in Acts, and the conflict with Peter mentioned in Galatians. since we are all clergy??? Are you not voting? But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. All he has to do is say "I repent" and it has to be forgiven and forgotten or we are the meanies. I think that the only way to self regulate is to have benchmarks that people must reach to be in leadership positions. "Our desire for things God has forbidden is a reflection of how sin has distorted us, rather than a reflection of how Christ has made us.". Thanks for your informative comment. Or there are people who were sexually abused by Uncle so and so who have forgiven him, and perhaps the man has done his time, but their forgiveness does not mean that they would ever allow their children in the same room with him. stephen the shepherd is dying. And of course, the author of Acts is writing more of a historical narrative so we dont get a lot of details. Until Mark repents of his Peasant Princess series along with its cartoon, and his Esther series, and his man stay-at-home man fail rants, the only sermon I will listen to of his and his supporters is John 3:16. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. excerpts from rob smiths post :https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/mars-hill-church-true-religion-does-not-abandon-orphans-and-widows-in-their-distress/. I take it to mean: Don't feel so bad, there are whole lot of other people hell-bound, too. Good luck to you Sam. It was never presented to me as something evil just something totally unnecessary and potentially dangerous. There was another couple along with us who knew a bit more about him and we absolutely amazed that this man, who could have been an elder, could not see through the act which you described so perfectly. People shift roles all the time (Mark has obviously been a persecutor a lot!). paul was all about not having followers or being glorified. For all the lack of American Idol production values I learned more in that one day of teaching at that little church then I did in all the years I attended Gateway. The best thing about it is one young woman had incredible courage. #driscollreturns paul most influential christian wrote most books this explains marks love of also writing books, Theyre having new revelations from heaven haha i mean from the internet blogs that they cant escape. He is young and using Jesus is all he knows. James River Church Engaged Employer Overview 38 Reviews 63 Jobs 26 Salaries -- Interviews 9 Benefits 47 Photos 12 Diversity Follow + Add a Review Employee Review See All Reviews ( 38) 2.0 Former Employee, more than 3 years Leadership not always what they portray Mar 2, 2017 - Anonymous Employee in Ozark, MO Recommend CEO Approval Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. It was so heretical that even the MH staff saw issues and took it down. "Addressing this topic or the subject of the upcoming vote from the pulpit is not against the law in this country, although it may be in the future," Lindell said in the sermon. We would love for you to join us for a service. Sopy Our heart at James River Church has always been to minister to people in our community. (WARNING: Includes graphic language), American news sources didn't waste much time alerting their readers of this development. At least at one point, women made up about 50% to 50% of most churches. from dictionary: Last week GW was desperately trying to give away as many copies as possible of some book COO Tom Lane wrote called Letters From a Dad to a Graduate. Some of the current worship songs that I hear dont do too much for me. You want to go all Colonel Jessup and rant about the truth? By the way, what do you call a person who tells lies? Seriously? You might be interested in this post from this recent post at Stand Firm, an Anglican blog, regarding Hillsong. Like the guy who was in charge of SGM, he got away scot-free and is doing well for himself despite the outcry against him. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. He wants to release you from that burden and bondage, they havent asked for forgiveness? You can learn a lot about someones character from how they treat those who are below them in status. I just think that there is not much reason to listen to just his side of the story and think that is all there may be to it. I dont think Christians have to throw out common sense/reason/logic. I believe in forgiveness, but cautious about putting such folks back on the platform. Clear All United States - All Cities What in the world could someone with his outlandish views contribute to conferences at Hillsong or James River? Its a professional, corporate institutional model based on an unbiblical clergy/ laity distinction. By and large, our local churches have been great examples of staying emotionally connected while protecting one another in this pandemicthis example does not do those congregations justice., I stg we're the dumbest country in world. Thats why I would use a better example: If you knew that someone is a recovering alcoholic, would you employ him as a barkeeper? Ive seen desensitizing have the desired effect and its not pretty. @ Lydia: He needs a revenue stream and using Jesus is all he knows. Of course but that is so remote given the environment I am not holding my breath. . It is a winner! Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. He screamed and swore. appeciate your posts and the others on this blog, i remember that, thanks Van, for the reminder. District. Others appear to draw some type of inspiration from Driscoll. Actually, they have as much as said that there is a good root (their doctrines/practices that accidentally produced some bad fruit. shuning is not always done professionally as in TVC but so often done whisperingly in churches but the effect is the same to the person shunned. This was a new song to me. Totally. I told him that. I doubt he walked away broke. Have you not spilled all your dark secrets at Freedom Ministry? Hillsong Church Disinvites Mark Driscoll While James River Church . What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. Years ago, he spoke from the pulpit against the expansion of casino gambling in Missouri. But the Pipers, Mohlers, Akins and others saw him as someone really catching the attention of the young guystheir followers. was paul asking for forgiveness? The SGM defenders used the no criminal charges aspect of innocence, too, when it came to CJ. the money that was supposed to be going to missionaries in another country had been intertwined with the general fund. Others appear to draw some type of inspiration from Driscoll. It didnt occur to me because I havent seen that modeled in a very long time. James River Church Reverend John E Lindell. i think that it worked quite well for Youth with a Mission for several years and then it went awry and i dont know the particulars of what happened. He had simply accepted the rumors. Same goes for singles. Also it is not where you sit in rows and hear a weekly lecture. With this much covidiocy in the country, we are proving ourselves to be the dumbest nation on earth. Yes, I am familiar with Che and what he represents. It was clear to me that Marks attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose. We hunkered down and prepared ourselves for the impact of Mark Driscolls threat. What in the world could someone with his outlandish views contribute to conferences at Hillsong or James River? Of course, we have yet to determine whether there has been a real change in Mark Driscoll's life. Additionally, Jonna Petry (who started the blog Joyful Exiles) was shunned along with the Petry children. I think people on all sides of these conflicts did some pretty horrendous things, as well as some decent things. I dont think people that have fallen for false teachers are stupid, i think instead it reflects the degree of deceit in the false teachers and the seriousnes of the manipulations being used. There is no uncertainty in that. I met the pastor. Having a large following for a while, being insulated from most of reality, produces this result. Certainly, Fulgencio Batista (dictator of Cuba at the time of the communist takeover) was a very corrupt man, whose government did terrible things, as with Trujillo in the Dominican Republic, Papa Doc Duvalier in Haiti, and many others. It is often just a wise thing to do if one is familiar with those types. Dont miss the title of Lindells May 16, 2014 blog entry: How about when people stone you for your faith? His appeal, then and now, has much to do with his looks plus a perception of him being anti-establishment, which he was. Of course he gave all kinds of excuses, Im young, brash, etc. But as he aged, and he spoke more and more, nothing changed, it got more vulgar, more illicit language, more rude, more obnoxious. I am sorry if anything I wrote about Che offended you. Brad Pitt cancelled his wedding there due to the churchs anti-gay preaching. Its also called community in a box. On the other hand though a lot of people obviously like the guy enormously and his business model for his church is pretty successful. You are doing exactly what you accuse the bloggers of. So, basically he functioned as Howard Stern for Christians. kudos to the hosts of the aussie tv show that made brian huston look at the absolute facts and rediculousness of his supporting (and paying for) an american mega pastor who is well known in christian circuits I use the term rediculous because I dont want to be mean or judgmental, but I believe that brian was all for helping mark get back in the saddle until it cost him some publicity. I am a current attender who was raised by people who love this church but I definitely have my confusions on a few things. The opposition is to Jesus. IMO, They are still who they are. He was an abusing thug. ( a stage really ) Same old spin .different tune. Ditto Bent Meyer who opposed the consolidation of powerful. Does it lie with Driscoll/Chandler or does it lie with the people whom they want to trust them? But, as you said, there is no substitute for a work of the Holy Spirit. @ LT: If Mark Driscoll is going to wanna manipulate his 501(c)3 Church audience to give him a second chance, hes gonna havta try harder. Edit: Thank you to everyone who commented. He fails all or almost all the qualifications laid out for that role as outlined in the New Testament. Im trying to get people to understand it because theres a whole lot of stuff thats out there thats being said, much of it is just just simply not even close to truth. News flash: Jesus is the hero of scripture. So many damaged lives. Oops, last comment of mine was supposed to link to this comment. Lindell doesnt have a real active blog, his third from last entry is titled: I used to buy into this,thinking it is such wisdom to see ourselves in the examples of scripture, until I realized that we never seem to see ourselves as the villain. http://www.nancyalcorn.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=21 So Brian Houston lied and succeeded in ending the protests and the media scrutiny temporarily. Mega-church Christianity with its rock bands, light shows, huge screens, and glitz reminds me more of Broadway than a church. Lets see. Also, as Driscolls friend, John Piper, wrote: pastors are not professionals. Its much harder to leave that way. Just show-biz. Driscoll also distanced himself from past crude and misogynistic remarks, calling the perception of what I think about womenentirely my own fault. Anyone who knowingly overlooks all this has no judgement. As Lydia has wisely pointed out, cult survivors are all at different stages in their recovery. It is deceiving men so they will be more inclined to pay those 500+ employees their hundred thousand dollar pay packages. one passenger died. I have a young friend who was totally enamored with him. Mot only do I think Driscoll is a wolf in sheeps clothing, but I think hes opportunistic, and because being a preacher is all he knows. it is heartbreaking to have to help them get through the transfer of custody until the one can get through a treatment and be able to be around the child again. As the CEO of MHC was MD completely unaware of what was going on with the Global Fund? I assumed that it was just me and 25,000 other people had no issue. All the more reason that Driscoll appears arrogant and pompous to me and doesnt at all seem to understand the damage hes caused. Thats why every post they make against corrupt churches matters. The financial aspects. I strongly recommend the brief article by Jon Zens at Searching Together entitled Going to the Root Mark Driscoll and the Celebrity System. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. Sex abuse inquiry to hear how churches responded to allegations against his father, Frank Houston, and two other men. This is not a measure of faith. Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community so long as you bow to him and stay on his good size. The Weapons Of Our Warfare Are Not Carnal?. Humility? One of the men had been to a conference in Seattle and was just wowed by his missional approach. Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. Even a brief check on MD online will turn up 67 billion pages with examples of his vulgar or obnoxious and bullying behavior, including several blogs by ex Mars Hill members. hmmm think of him as he is pray to glorified jesusking of kings lord of lords worshiped by angels. stephen says Ive gotta find jesus on the worst most devasting difficult damaging day of my life I have to find jesus (more mark interpreting the bible for all of us non pastors, stephen already knew where Jesus was) and he sees jesus, what is jesus doing? I asked people who were about as famous (if that is what you call it) as him what they thought. Missouri church service Saturday evening. So, that is why I think it would have been wise for Driscoll to remove himself from the limelight and assume a servant posture. The Reformed Neo Cal world is going, Mark who?. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Its much harder to leave that way. I do not for one minute believe they are suddenly open. Some people believe that God put them there. Maybe six months from now, there'll be another terrible story, and we'll know that they BS'd us. He can be forgiven. For the Christmas services, additional services were added to further provide for social distancing. Are we really talking about clerical influence/position/authority and money? I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. My point with Che is to draw a parallel. He diverts attention from the real purpose, the Gospel, to himself. Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? Likewise, you cannot be or stay a pastor if you find out that you cant respect people. . I didnt realize tens of thousands had already left. Penalty Flag? "The mayor was not in favor of this ordinance," Lindell told his congregation. Many times it kept me from feeling like I was the only one who could see this stuff or understood how wrong it is. Ill talk to you more tomorrow, so dont forget to check back! pastors that use their position to wreck peoples lives arent expected to go to jail or show tears publicly and thats ok if its not warranted but it is very reasonable for people to see something, anything, that looks like actual remorse before they think its ok for them to go back to influencing the lives of people. where is Mark Driscolls apology to over a thousand children in two orphanages? And Lindell knows none of that is because of him. Not a fan but many are. And so on. Your facts are a bit off, beginning with the meaning of Che. I am no fan of his, but there are some big holes in your acvount of his life. He is a draw. Well-meaning people are attempting to put Jesus in structures that do not foster the expression of his life in the saints. I have also heard the thoroughly abusive interpretation of Psalm 105:15 touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation). Ok, I looked up Hillsong because I know in the past theres been a bit of controversy about them. James River Church | Christian Church - Springfield, MO My great concern is that people leaving megas to find these narrow gate churches are used to high level spiritainment and may not feel able to reduce their standards to go to a small church. He doesnt come near to meeting basic societal criteria for a decent person. The prophets in that verse are likewise OT prophets and also refers only to physical harm. Mark Driscoll should not be a preacher ever again. They may have been totally shocked when Mark began to spew his rude, humiliating, oppressive descriptions and warped perceptions of scripture and men and women. Che badgered/shamed the workers that receiving a pat on the back from their boss/comrade for increasing the quota should be enough for them to continue to increase production without any chance of being compensated for it monetarily. He did it from one of the most powerful places in Southwest Missouri the pulpit of James River Church, where he leads an Assemblies of God congregation that often tops 9,000 worshipers on Sundays. I hope you found some of the above helpful. Pouring what, exactly? I have always found this aspect of Pauls story very interesting. Your mistake is in assuming that Driscoll was there to deliver a sermon. Why should we bother with reading history or learning the truth? Mark Driscoll has shown that hes capable of inflicting a lot of damage on many people. Something has gone seriously wrong in Mega-Land and it aint just thinking about having MD speak at one of their conferences. we see this in culture and politics all the time. Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyones eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. James River Church - Wikipedia So far I define church as more what it isnt rather than what it is. The worst thing in the world right now for Chandler is that Mark is in making the Christian news cycle. I think it underestimates those believers in the pews who are, themselves, filled with the Spirit and do exhibit the fruit of Galations 5. Galatians 5:22-23. Because cheap grace for Christians who are not decent people is all the rage now. they warm up to stone people like baseball players and lay their coats at the feet of saul to show he is the alpha. (I would have thought he was the lazy one who didnt want to get his hands dirty by actually doing anything but talking a lot), takes it from daniel where god becomes man, if you saw Jesus you would not likely see him as you expect. But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. (Note I did not diagnose) I do believe seen in that light, it makes it simpler to see how he gets by with it and why some who also make their living in similar ways are promoting him. Its a measure of arrogance. He spends the remainder of the sermon talking about Saul who became Paul and forgiveness. when mercy ministries was investigated at hillsong amazingly the leader Nancy Acorn opened up shop in the u.s. and has many supporters among the christian circuit I am not the most wonderful guy in the world, i am not a saint, but when i asked Jesus to forgive me and fill me with His Spirit i changed inside. Great comment Bridget. appeciate your posts and the others on this blog. Im really glad that you are reaching out to GW and other exiles. He has lots of pics holding impoverished babies while his own 5 kids barely saw him. We need to be just absolutely rigorously adherent to things that we know work. One needed them because they were somehow spiritually qualified (?) During those early years they had a great impact on hurting people and a great testimony of the work of the Lord in a group of people dedicated to doing whatever He led them to do. Ive recently read Wayne Jacobsen Finding Church, Frank Viola Finding Organic Church, Terry Stanley The way Church Was Meant To Be and found what they think the church should be an interesting concept but so far Im not convinced. All 6,115 words of it. Gateway is so deceptive in all their practices. perhaps, assuming cunning strategy on the part of MD and Mark Demoss: *this sector of christainworld is the path of least resistance (especially since from others comments the YRR/reformed world has disowned him).