And you know, I got to know him less and less during that period. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you spent four years there? I wanted to have a three-day ceratopsian symposium, which they did a wonderful job of. More from This Artist Similar Designs. Retouching, restoration [00:44:00]. You know, it's a hydra; I could wrap my arms around and, you know, slowly get a handle on what the risks are, because it is a big beast. JUDITH RICHARDS: So as you got to 2000, 2001, how did your interestyou said you became involved with the Worcester Museum. So they put Anthony Crichton-Stuart, who used to be Christie's head of Old Masters, in charge of Noortman Gallery. London? [00:25:59]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, yeah, which I willbecause, basically, now that I have to move out of my last warehouse, I need very purpose-built storage for my own collection, so I will probably build something that's large enough that I can accommodate other collectors if they need to. They didn't talk, and they weren't friendly. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, to me, that was that was very exciting. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. You know, along with Ai Weiwei as the eyeballs or something, you know. I am none of the above. So, you know, I think that's why I say it's a hobby you can take to your tomb. And they are identical sizes; they're both signed; and to me, this is the project that shows Procaccini as the truly important artist that he was, not simply a Lombard artist, but a great artist. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you donated the piece, or you donated the funds for them to purchase the piece? It was about 200 pounds. I brought a chandelier back from Vienna. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There were a billion people in 1900. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, it's interesting, because when I was confronted with the idea of buying the firm and realizing that I don't ever want to be the public faceI don't want to be the person in front of this business; it's not my world. Howwhat was the process of that reattribution officially? Had you been thinking about it? I love to run around and look for paintings for them. But I'm not going back to school." [00:40:05]. And also, I'm obsessed with these pivot moments in time, so the events that lead to unforeseen consequences much later on. For an angel, I thought this was [laughs] such an unusual thing, to give them such a worldly attribute, you know, almost a peasant, worldly attribute. I was very impressed with all of it, you know; the effort as a dealer was astonishing. This is a Renaissance object. All of a sudden, there's 30 mainland Chinese people in the room. So that was my 2000 [TEFAF] Maastricht, where I went away dejected but finally redeemed myself. You know, it's interesting to me, because I'm an advocate for that market. And, you know, the best Procaccini, when I was looking back in 2000, was 5 to 6 million. Then they have these mosaics from Antioch. So I do have paper files, and now, in my current computer, I will have a rudimentary fact sheet and photographs of just about every painting. I mean [00:47:59]. And I said, "I'm not going back to school. It had been in dealer hands so long, and it had been sort of, shall we say, gussied up so many times by restorersanother layer of varnish, another layer of feeble retouching, another layer of varnish. But no, I mean, it's not [00:40:05]. So you haveyou know, you haveif you added all of that up and then inflated that with inflation, it probably still wouldn't equal one major sale today, because art inflation is actually much higher than monetary inflation. And Sotheby's purchased the company, and then Robert Noortman died literally, I think, six or nine months later, unexpectedly. So I joined that, which was a lot of fun. And he said, "Do you know what you bought?" So they had this booth; I had a brief conversation about the Procaccini. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and that's an area that, as I've expanded my interest in, because Agnew's has such a deep archive on that material, so, you know, one of the first big projects we did with Anthony [Crichton-Stuart] was a phenomenal Pre-Raphaelite exhibition and show, and, you know. I had developed my eye to the extent that I also realized that all the export wares were crude Kraak wares that they were just, you know, flipping onto the boats to get rid of it. I've also had some crazy requests that I won't honor, you know, museums in France that want to do awant to recreate the human digestive system, and they want toyou know, they want to have thisI have a painting by [Pieter] Huys, H-U-Y-S, and it's ait's this screaming woman. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Still living in Boston, yeah. And the. That was [00:06:00]. And her father was Wilhelm Wolfgang. CLIFFORD SCHORER: They were doing that anyway. [Laughs.]. I said, "Well, you know, that's exciting news." CLIFFORD SCHORER: And they decided to move to, you know, some pastoral landscape down south, not knowing at all what that meant. [Laughs.] This recipe for Air Fryer Green Beans is perfect if you want a simple, side dish with less than 5 ingredients and minimal prep. JUDITH RICHARDS: Institutional history, yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Because the people I knew [laughs] when I was 17 were 60. So it comes up at Sotheby's. They were the combat correspondents of their day, traveling and living with soldiers. And I learned to say the most rudimentary things. JUDITH RICHARDS: Over many years? The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Clifford Schorer on June 6 and 7, 2018. So I was going to the library at Harvard and at other places and reading the catalogues for all the Drouot sales and, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: So how long did you work there as a programmer? [00:02:03]. JUDITH RICHARDS: your fellow collectors? They take advice, and they build wonderful collections, and they're wonderful people, but you talk to them about things other than paintings. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My understanding is it's around 1911 and '12, yeah. I mean, there are many historical examples of seeing some particular painting in a museum and just standing there for 25 minutes and saying, you know, "I can't believe this painting. And since I'm, you know. I was in Prague. [00:45:59]. But art has consumed all of the oxygen in my room. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you only spent one year there? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Butyeah, I mean, there are occasionswe did a 5,000 years of portraiture show with an Egyptian Fayum and a Lucien Freud. And sure enough, like a year later, the bronze show comes to London, and there it is with thein fullyou know, 100 greatest objects in bronze. So it's, to me, those moments. And so, yes, there are those amazing, you know, random fate intersections, but they're notthey're certainly not something that happen often enough to warrant, you know, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Five years later, I might find a, you know, Salvator Rosa figure, or a print. JUDITH RICHARDS: And the Imperial, did you end up selling it? So it wasyou know, thatit's not as if you canat the level we're talking about in paleontology, there's not many opportunities. You have to think about tastes and the moment of your taste and whether the market is esteeming that taste at a given moment. It was called the Professors ProgramUniversity Professors Program. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. Suite 2200 High quality Clifford Schorer Winslow Homer-inspired gifts and merchandise. So it was more aboutit was more about the business of the trade of these things. But they packed up the car and packed up the Model T. I helped them. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and we put a Reynolds. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I like darkness, so that's easy. CLIFFORD SCHORER: We do. I said, "I stand corrected." So I met with Julian Agnew, and I understood that, basically 10 years too early, they were going to sell the business10 years too early for my life's plan; I had no intention of doing this, you know, before I was 60. CLIFFORD SCHORER: it's ano, it's a part gift, part sale, and in the end, it hadthe strings that I had, they met them all, which were that they're going to do a focal exhibition on paleontology in thebecause they're doing a re-jigger of many of their exhibitions. And I said, "Well, I assume you do if you just bid me up to $47,000." These things happen, I suppose. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And so I was very happy to be there at the moment when they needed the business side to think about things like the real estate, the liability, the employees, you know, the human resource matters, the board relationship between their board and our board when they're being absorbed into our board, that sort of thing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. But I went away, you know, tail between my legs, because it was absolutely unattainable for me. You know, all of those things, and then you just let go, and it's, you knowit is aI think my psychology is well suited for that in a sense, because I don't have this great lust for the object; I have the lust for the moments that, you know, that sort of [00:36:00]. And so, you know, now that I see they're buying great things, they're talking to people I know about pictures I know, about things I know about, and that creates an inherent conflict. Came back to public school in Massapequa, Long Island, because that was the most convenient homestead we could use, and failed every class. I said, "Okay.". CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, and theyyou know, in a sense, that's lovely, but that, that's not really me. You know, I'd just come over and ask them questions about art, and I'm learning more from them than they could ever learn from me, CLIFFORD SCHORER: because they're there telling me about something that they have, you know. It's the same sort of, you know, psychological idea. Have there been particular trips that have been important to you oror in another way, how does travel impact your collecting? [Laughs.] I lived in Massapequa, Long Island, for probably an extended period; I would say from about age seven until aboutactually, from about age eight until about 13. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I don't know how many there were that were unsorted. For example, I am a big fan of [Giulio Cesare] Procaccini. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. You know, from the slaves of West Africa, to the sugar, to the rum, to the plates, to the spices. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, I readwhen I get involved in something, I read obsessively. JUDITH RICHARDS: which will then improve the value of your own collection if you still hold it. Because, actually, I got rid of the Victorian, and I now live in a Gropius house. But I do see that I have to be conscious of the conflicts of interest, and that conflict of interest also impacts theyou know, I don't want the collectors who buy from Agnew's to think that they're getting second shot at things that I've already vetted and said I don't want for myself. Quality clifford SCHORER: I mean, I assume you do if you just bid me up $... Maastricht, where I went away, you know, it 's, to me, those moments advocate... I went away dejected but finally redeemed myself three-day ceratopsian symposium, which was a lot of fun or. 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