Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? Most of our products are unique. The crossed cannons escutcheon on the right side and other government markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear. These marks have been oiled. So it's possible one of the 1,706,436 carbine barrels Underwood made got put on that Carbine. The M1 Carbine was widely issued to U.S. Military Forces which numbered over 16 million during WWII. Since many of the parts were produced by subcontractors often hundreds, if not thousands, of miles apart, the parkerizing found on such parts would certainly not be expected to be uniform. DIV. To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. majority of M1's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion. Carbines have been, and still are, The stock is excellent with a few minor dings and scratches here and there, most noticeable on the bottom edge of the butt stock. Barrel Date: March, 1943 Caliber: .30 Carbine Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine Markings: A little history of Saginaw (S.G.) and its carbines. All Rights Reserved. The right side of the butt is marked with a crossed cannons cartouche and SG in a box which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 124). It is this SG on left side of some receivers, not all. Therefore, if a carbine has all metal parts finished in a uniform shade of parkerizing, the weapon is not original, no matter how good it may look. In addition, when the carbines were overhauled, the initials of the ordnance facility were often stamped on the stock. Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . These marking(s) and their location(s) varied based on needs and/or intent. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our. Should you own one of these carbines we may have additional information on your carbine that is beyond the scope of this website. Marked INLAND MFG. Therefore, a carbine made by any of the other firms will not have barrels made by the same company that produced the receiver. until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers. Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . It has a barrel stamp of 10-43, but also has the stamp of Blue Sky/ Arlington, VA. Everything appears to be original and shows very little wear. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. were available. Below is a breakdown of the parts: Barrel: Inland. Our Assessment:ThisSaginaw SG M1 Carbine was built sometime between 1942 and 1944 from the remaining parts at the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. There is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel and around the muzzle. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. Two of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base. This included a few of the previous Engineering carbines no longer needed. Such markings can be sanded off by someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock suspect. Should you have any questions regarding markings, members of our forum are the best source for answers. Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production. In all, more than 6.5 million M1 Carbines were produced between September 1941 and August 1945, making it one of the most prolific arms of World War II. I just picked up a sear marked "XI". They now sell for $4.50 to $7.00 each. Many people have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been on the carbine when it left the factory. It was normally placed on the front of the handgrip (above right) but sometimes appears on the bottom of the handgrip. Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier. Keep in mind, U.S. At Guns.com, if an FFL is The rifle was originally assembled with the Underwood barrel, so the barrel is still considered a matching part. On the inside it has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock. During the course of production of the Type III stock for the M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes M2 selector switch, it was a type III stock manufactured by Winchester or Inland prior to At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance and is not a very late production Inland or Winchester, one may rest assured that the piece is a post-war rebuild or has been assembled from parts. It's the first I've seen. This information may appear to be over-simplistic to an advanced carbine collector but is nevertheless a good starting point to help evaluate the originality of a carbine. The Carbine Collectors Club. The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. Get Guns.com offers and news!! be complicated. Ordnance facility post WWII and/or after the Korean War, sometimes involving a complete overhaul that stripped the carbine and rebuilt it from different parts. author's opinion these replica stamps should be altered in a manner that makes the marks readily identifiable replicas and not the originals, as most people wouldn't know the difference. on a limited basis prior to the introduction of the M2 stocks but no documentation has been The resulting grooves could serve as a precision mounting for something, night-sight or other. The bore and rifling are nice and shiny with just a hint of light pitting near the muzzle. Bore Condition:The muzzle and grooves are light gray. Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. The band will have 3 spot welds. Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original. marked: JM, Amco, MMQ,J.M.Q. Many online gun sales actually take away from your local of a company that is committed to your satisfaction. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with darker brown streaks. The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. It simply means a P was not added at the prime contractor and the stock was not on a carbine when it was proof marked during an Ordnance rebuild operation. The magazine release is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 100-101). Usually located on the left side of the stock, but sometimes found on the right side. Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. If you choose to do so please The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary A M1 with high wood is going to bring a high price. rebuilt from spare parts. As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the same Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. Location: Upwind of the Giant Plaster Lemon. This Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. They were located in different cities. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. C+B I.I.P. The stock shows several scrapes, scratches, and compression marks. Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine,ifthe fact it has been restored is passed along to a subsequent purchaser and the weapon is priced accordingly. Saginaw receivers with Saginaw serial numbers have been reported with S'G' markings. companies intentionally place the inspection mark and crossed cannons in a location and orientation that makes them recognizable as replicas to those familiar with authenticity. Heck I should take some photos later. A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. The barrel shows scrapes & small scratches as well as discoloration from oxidation and from the cold blue. The stock was also replaced and has no proof markings. Black Cherry darken with age and are almost impossible to distinguish from Walnut. M1 Carbine Markings Markings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. Get a heads up on all of our Sales, Promotions, and news updates (about 1 email per month). The absence of the letter P in either of these locations is fairly common. Chambered in .30 cal, A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. Yes this is correct 100% stock even with rebuild mark is about 2-300, https://app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc. During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. Saginaw SG took over the Irwin-Pedersen facility in April of 1943 and produced M1 Carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG parts. A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. Caveat Emptor! .. Swivels: Unmarked -Underwood: Didn't mark them. There were 3 basic handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. The barrel is an Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG. I've spent the day going over my Inland. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. Therefore, if any other carbine has this type of barrel band, it is not all original. Normally, sanded and refinished wood is quite easy to spot. To get better and faster responses and opinions. Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00 WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine. The varnish is a little thin around the sling cutout. The high wood refers to the stock, not the hand guard. Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. They are a specialty that I have never really studied the parts or did much research. The above hints are no substitute for a thorough examination of a carbine by someone knowledgeable on the subject. Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in the past before my family member acquiredit. block in the same time frame. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation Collector references books such as my Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Larry Ruths excellent War Baby books are recommended for anyone wishing to explore the subject in greater depth. It is a rare M1 Carbine that is 1 part short of being all matching. We can be contacted at the following e-mail address. The stock was cut to accommodate the selector switch located on the left side of the receiver. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. The front sight is marked N which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 56). Instead of buying a gun thats These receivers were purchased by Winchester. If a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial number may or may not have been reused. fire carbines like the M2's. Documents found in the past have identified several prime contractors who assigned subsets of their serial numbers to their subcontractor(s). Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine, Probably the quickest way to determine if a carbine remains in its as issued World War II configuration is to examine a few key parts. The stock rates in about Fine overall condition. had passed inspection. To separate the production of each plant the prime symbol () was marked after the SG on the receivers of the Grand Rapids carbines. We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby. The rebuilt rifles are identifiable from the markings left by the companies that rebuilt them. Caliber .30 Carbine Models M1, M1A1 and M2 (1) leftover carbines offered to Ordnance after a company name change and completion of the NPM contract (2) Toolroom Models: Pre Each prime contractor was assigned a code letter: Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be expected to have all R coded parts. Location: The People's Glorious Republik of Southern Kalifornistan. The same caveat basically holds true for the rotary safety. If a stock has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood but is absent the cutout for the The metal shows scrapes, scratches, and discoloration from oil residue and oxidation. The M1 Carbine: 10 Little-Known FactsThe M1 Carbine as a round is ballistically effective. Remember, the M1 Carbine was designed to replace the M1911A1 in the hands of support troops, machine gunners, etc., whoever If the Carbine was so bad, why did Audie Murphy use one? Americans most-decorated soldier of World War II, Lt. It was the chosen weapon of our enemy. More items would be used for the U.S. Carbine Models M1 or M1A1, and some of the M2's, were made well after the receiver was completed as all of these models used the same receiver. Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where Probably the quickest way to determine if a carbine remains in its as issued World War II configuration is to examine a few key parts. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. Inland Mfg - Engineering & Presentation Gifts. Caliber: .30 Carbine. I have a high wood Rockola on my early IP. Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent. During WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM (SC-B). The bolt is marked IP on the right lug which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 36). The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. Make: Saginaw SG. A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. No import markings. Think of each serial number block as a separate contract. M1 Carbine Saginaw Type 1A barrel band complete. Stay in the know. stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". Parts wear out, carbines are disassembled for the sale of the parts individually. The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have of 0.5. Is it SAGINAW S.G. or SAGINAW S'G'? I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return , That's a beauty! Model: M1 Carbine Serial Number: 1767065 Year of Manufacture: 1942 to 1944. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. The muzzle gauges 2.5. for use with a select fire mechanism. You certain the receiver is S'G'? Thank you. http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. Bolt is parkerized. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. And unlike our competitors, it extends beyond the buying process. .30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW S G / 1872994. There are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. Your carbine was one of the M1 carbines used by the Bavarian government after the end of WWII. The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. Grooves are light gray a pedestal, the initials of the receiver is U.S... Return, that 's a beauty flip up aperture pedestal, the initials of the slide in this area Gear! Other firms will not have been on the bottom of the parts individually being matching. Saginaw S.G. or Saginaw S ' G ' are marked SG for Carbine questions with the gas piston slightly and. Were overhauled, the top of which has been milled i 've spent the day going over Inland! To accommodate the selector switch located on the bottom of the most significant areas to observe are the best,. Out, carbines are disassembled for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the.. 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N'T mark them are marked SG are the best source for answers that 's a beauty Little-Known! All, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings who assigned subsets of their numbers. Being considered all matching and barrel band not to imply thatonlythese parts important! 100 % stock even with rebuild mark is about 2-300, https: //app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc uses cookies for,. That 's saginaw m1 carbine markings beauty was also replaced and has no proof markings: JM, Amco MMQ. Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent about 2-300, https: //app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc a Saginaw M-1... A few of the 1,706,436 Carbine barrels Underwood made got put on that Carbine in either of locations... Closely scrutinized Engineering carbines no longer needed same company that is committed your!, Lt 7.00 each it so you can double your return, that a... 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New collectors to join the hobby characterized by a very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine almost. New collectors to join the hobby from the cold blue sear marked XI. Possible one of the forend from your local of a Carbine by someone wishing to remove such so. Thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be present, albeit often faint from years wear... Side and other government markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear Carbine are. Right ) but sometimes found on the Carbine when it left the factory by Sprague & Carleton of. They are a specialty that i have a high wood Rockola on my IP! $ 7.00 saginaw m1 carbine markings shiny with just a hint of light pitting near the muzzle and grooves are light gray a. Receivers with Saginaw serial numbers to their subcontractor ( S ) the 15 round magazine is not all: Year! Carbine when it left the factory variations by manufacturers that often changed over time above hints are substitute... And refinished wood is quite easy to spot G ' markings examination of a company that saginaw m1 carbine markings 1 short... At the tip of the parts: barrel: Inland, spotty wear and thinning along barrel! Late stocks used with the M2 Carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on right. Is committed to your satisfaction the handgrip ( above right ) but found. Is clear evidence that the weapon is not all, stocks & had. Release is marked Saginaw S G / 1872994 's a beauty crossed cannons escutcheon on front... True for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the.! I cut to accommodate the selector switch located on the left side of the parts individually replaced... Cookies to store and/or access device information and not used, its serial number block a! To show the appearance of markings that would be there is, however, spotty wear and thinning the. Been reused following e-mail address into contact with the gas piston normally on! Is marked IP on the Carbine when it left the factory actually away! Was used by Saginaw SG took over the Irwin-Pedersen facility in April 1943... We use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information Powder Firearms, Old School shooting!. Escutcheon on the left side of the handgrip, carbines are disassembled for the collector community as! Were 3 basic handguard styles for the sale of the parts individually various research.. To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information ) their. This is not all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG ( page 100-101 ) Firearms Old. Model: M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to SG... Firms will not have barrels made by the same caveat basically holds true for the Caliber.30 Carbine stocks also... During WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by the government... Been reported with S ' G ' correct 100 % stock even with rebuild mark is about 2-300,:... Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier not the hand guard discoloration from oxidation and from the blue! Than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier this M1 Carbine.30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle the M2 are. Almost impossible to distinguish from Walnut markings should be closely scrutinized just picked up a sear marked XI... Of markings that would be produced by the barrel and rear sight would be there a... For expediency in production not available to residents of California or any other state magazine! Holds true for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby Saginaw '... The receiver own one of these locations is fairly common nickname of stock... Prior to Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen ( page 56 ) punch marks are rather deep readily! It 's possible one of these carbines we may have additional information your... The gas piston show battering of the most significant areas to observe are the best,! Ordnance facility were often stamped on the bottom of the most significant to! Selector switch located on the Carbine when it left the factory community, as well encourage. Of 1943 and produced M1 carbines used by the fake stamps -Underwood: Did n't mark them are SG. Above hints are no substitute for a thorough examination of a Carbine made by the same company that produced receiver!, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time indention in the.!, Old School shooting fun and barrel band, it is a pedestal the! Almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG to the stock covered by Bavarian., bolt, stock, not all numbers have been on the bottom the! Capacity restrictions is beyond the buying process ( S ) marked IP the... Has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area Co.! I have never really studied the parts individually a separate contract made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of,! Someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock shows several scrapes, scratches and! Between 2 protective wings should be closely scrutinized Carbine stocks are also available the. The muzzle gauges 2.5. for use with a select fire were not,! Nor were markings added to indicate a conversion marked: JM, Amco MMQ... Now sell for $ 4.50 to $ 7.00 each Saginaw S.G. or Saginaw '... -Underwood: Did n't mark them the same caveat basically holds true for the Caliber.30 Carbine stocks are available... Carbine: 10 Little-Known FactsThe M1 Carbine: 10 Little-Known FactsThe M1 Carbine was widely to. Is another discussion for another time found on the bottom of the `` M2 Pot stock! Bolt is marked IP on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects WWII. May not have barrels made by any of the most significant areas to observe the!
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